webpup on #polsc7

[Thu Sep 28 18:41:57 2000]
<DrB> Hey, Margo.
<DrB> Hello, Margo.
<Margo> Hi Dr. B, what's up
<DrB> Not much...
<DrB> what's going on?
<Margo> Tons of HW, waiting for the weekend
<DrB> I'm looking forward to the weekend.
<Margo> i tried to go to the study group last night but my email was down and the address was in there. bummer, huh.
<DrB> Bummer.
<cecilia> good evening everybody
<DrB> Hey...just waiting...
<DrB> for few more students...
<DrB> to arrive.
<DrB> Lost one.
<DrB> We'll start...
<DrB> in just a few seconds.
<Jim> Hey guys
<DrB> Hey, Jim...
<DrB> we're just waiting...
<DrB> a few more seconds...
<DrB> to see who will arrive....
<DrB> I hate it when Windows are destroyed.
<Bria> haha
<DrB> Ok, guys....
<DrB> lets go ahead and get started...
<DrB> Before we get to the meaty stuff...
<DrB> Does anybody have questions?
<Bryan> oops
<DrB> No questions?
<Bryan> ?
<DrB> Bryan?
<Bryan> Did you ever figure out the number seven question?
<DrB> Refresh our memory about that one, Bryan.
<Bryan> I asked that last Tuesday and it was question number seven and I got the answer "Germany"
<Bryan> However that wasn't one of the multiple choice questions
<DrB> What was the question?
<Bryan> It was something like Which country was lagging in the whole claiming territory, France, Britain, US, or Japan
<DrB> It must be a typo...
<DrB> I'll try to check it out...
<Tanya> !
<Bryan> cool thanks
<DrB> and correct any errors.
<DrB> Tan?
<Tanya> The answer was Japan, at least that was what the reply was when I posted the answers.
<Bryan> !
<DrB> I may just have to throw out the question...
<DrB> Bry?
<Bryan> I guessed Japan and I got it wrong.
<Tanya> !
<DrB> Tan?
<Tanya> OK, I'm looking at the answers to the Sample Quiz 3 and it says Japan is correct, and it fits the question. Don't want to be difficult.
<DrB> Japan felt left out...
<DrB> after World War I ....
<DrB> Japan believed...
<DrB> that it would be granted ....
<DrB> territorial concessions after the Great War...
<Jim> ?
<DrB> But all it ended up with...
<DrB> were some German islands in the Pacific...
<DrB> Jim?
<Tanya> !
<Jim> I noticed in several of the essays, that America...
<Jim> is seen to have failed to get involved...
<Jim> when they should have...
<Jim> but no one comes out and says...
<Jim> that America was a major cause.
<DrB> We're talking WWI, WWII, or both?
<Jim> WWII mostly...
<Jim> but I believe I noticed that slant on WWI also.
<DrB> Hmmmm....Tanya?
<Tanya> Pass.
<DrB> Do people agree...
<DrB> that American isolationism...
<DrB> was a cause of World War II?
<Claire> !
<DrB> Claire?
<Tanya> !
<lauren> !
<Claire> I think America was a cause in that...
<Claire> after twisting everyone's arms to create the League of Nations...
<Claire> they did not join, and therefore did not help enforce the terms...
<Claire> of the Versailles Treaty.
<Claire> In terms of their isolationism...
<Claire> I think that would be neutral...
<Claire> had they helped to enforce the treaty.
<DrB> Okay...
<DrB> Tan?
<Tanya> I don't necessarily feel it was a 'cause', more perhaps an element that added more fuel to a hyper-tense situation.
<DrB> Lauren?
<lauren> I don't feel that is was the cause either...
<lauren> I feel that if they would have stuck....
<lauren> to the Versailles Treaty....
<lauren> war could have been possibly prevented
<DrB> Let me ask the class something...
<DrB> Do you think the Entente (allied) powers treaty Germany too hard at Versailles? ....
<DrB> Or not hard enough?
<Tanya> !
<DrB> Tan?
<Tanya> I can't say for sure that it was either or, but...
<Dave_E> !
<Tanya> the lack of 'follow-up' was appalling.
<DrB> By "follow-up", Tan....
<DrB> what exactly do you mean?
<Tanya> Well, they established these provisions on Germany...
<Tanya> by way of military and economic sanctions...
<Tanya> sanctions, I mean...
<Tanya> and then didn't keep an eye on Germany...
<Tanya> not to mention that there was no provision for the future potential of the...
<Tanya> economic or military strength of Germany mandated in the settlement.
<DrB> I want to come back...
<DrB> to the reasons...
<DrB> behind the failure to enforce the Versailles agreement...
<DrB> but first...
<DrB> Dave?
<Dave_E> It think Germany was treated too harsh. They were asked to respect their neighbors sovereignty yet the Versailles Treaty infringed on their sovereignty.
<Claire> !
<Tanya> !
<DrB> Claire?
<Bryan> !
<Claire> I agree with Dave....
<Claire> to personify the states...
<Claire> it seems like France was trying to doubly nail Germany..
<Claire> in revenge for the Franco-Prussian war.
<DrB> Can you blame the French?....
<DrB> The Germans also created quite a ruckus...
<DrB> in France in 1914-17.
<DrB> Tan?
<Tanya> On paper, Dave, the infringement upon Germany was indeed harsh, but with the failure to enforce these provisions infringed more on the validity of the settlement and the drawers of this settlement...
<Tanya> kind of like when a child does something wrong, the parents then punish them, but don't follow through with the punishment...
<Tanya> it makes for an irresponsible child.
<Jim> !
<DrB> Bry?
<Bryan> If you think about it Germany was invading all over everyone else's countries, the Saar was a region that had been fought over for years and years, but I don't think we were harsh enough, this country started a war, people died it wasn't like a few nasty words and signed papers, and it was Germany who was provoking this stuff, and we let them off the hook a little to lightly we should have stopped after world war 1 rather than allowing them to go write back
<DrB> Jim?
<Jim> I don't thin that they were harsh enough. We have a strong free Germany because they did what they should have done....
<Jim> after the second war...
<Jim> sorry, that should have been done after the first.
<DrB> What more could we do? ...
<DrB> We took away their territory...
<DrB> we force the Kaiser to abdicate...
<DrB> we denied them an air force, conscription....
<DrB> we limited their army and navy...
<DrB> and then forced them to pay unbearable reparations...
<DrB> And we did all this to a country...
<DrB> that was not defeated in war...
<DrB> but rather sued for peace on the basis of promises...
<DrB> that they would be treated fairly...
<DrB> One could argue...
<DrB> that the Germans were, indeed, ...
<DrB> stabbed in the back.
<Jim> !
<Tanya> !
<DrB> Jim?
<Jim> I agree with you, but when you have an aggressor such as Germany was, you must also install a new goverbment, as drastic as that sounds.
<DrB> Perhaps...
<DrB> But once you overturn a government...
<DrB> and force a new one on a defeated people...
<DrB> you better be prepared...
<DrB> to stick around for a long time...
<DrB> We've been in Germany since May 1945 ....
<DrB> Does anybody think...
<DrB> that we'll leave Germany anytime soon? ....
<DrB> Tan?
<Tanya> I can see your point DrB, and to a certain degree agree with it - from a factual point of view, but the bottom line is that it certainly didn't stop them, and apparently it only made them worse for they grew to create a power that was severely anti-democratic and very deadly.
<Tanya> Sorry, a little behind...I don't think we'll be leaving Germany any time soon.
<DrB> The argument sort of goes like this...
<DrB> the Versailles Treaty...
<DrB> which was imposed on Germany ....
<DrB> in 1919 (remember, Germany wasn't even permitted to participate in the conference) ...
<DrB> was unreasonably harsh...
<DrB> Not only did this create resentments among the Germans...
<DrB> but it also created some public sympathy for the Germans...
<DrB> among the British and American publics...
<DrB> So that when Hitler started throwing his weight around...
<DrB> the Western democracies hesitated to respond...
<DrB> believing that there was, in fact, ...
<DrB> some justice to Hitler's demands...
<Tanya> ?
<DrB> Only too late did we realize...
<DrB> what a maniac he really was...
<DrB> Tan?
<Tanya> That was my question...
<Tanya> How long was it before our 'sympathy' for Germany turned to anger and how many people had to die because of it?
<DrB> American public opinion...
<DrB> turned pretty anti-Nazi ...
<DrB> by 1938 or 1939.
<Tanya> ?
<DrB> Tan?
<Tanya> But we still didn't join the war until 1941...
<Jim> !
<Tanya> and then only because Japan kind of dragged us in?
<DrB> Well...
<DrB> we were actually fighting the Germans...
<DrB> in the North Atlantic...
<DrB> as early as 1940 ...
<DrB> We just didn't call it war...
<DrB> we called it, "self-defense" ...
<DrB> Jim?
<Jim> I'll agree with some of that argument, but The very first time I heard Hitler speak, And of course I didn"t....
<Jim> understand the language...
<Jim> I knew he was a maniac, and I was 10.
<Claire> !
<DrB> Claire?
<Claire> Whether he was a maniac or not he was a powerful speaker...
<Tanya> ?
<Bryan> !
<Claire> who was able to tap into some of the major frustrations of the German people...
<Claire> in order to motivate their support and action...
<Claire> Admittedly, he could have used his genius in positive and less genocidal way.
<DrB> Tan?
<Tanya> I have another facet to this. Obviously the German people found Hitler enticing in the beginning as he brought them out of economic crisis, But they didn't stop him when they themselves found him to be an animal and became aware of the atrocities he was committing. Why?
<DrB> The German people...
<DrB> have a lot to account for...
<DrB> Bry?
<Bryan> He may have sounded kinda psycho and in another language he did but in their language it was very inspirational.
<DrB> Okay...
<Jim> !
<DrB> how about this question? .....
<DrB> Jim?
<Jim> Are we saying that it was also...
<Jim> inspirational to the rest of the world...
<Jim> or were they just stupid...
<Bryan> no, Germany
<Jim> in thinking he would go away?
<DrB> By the time the Germans...
<DrB> realized that Hitler could not be stopped...
<DrB> they couldn't stop him! ....
<DrB> Okay...
<DrB> how about this one? ....
<DrB> Was Stalin correct....
<DrB> in charging that the Americans and British...
<DrB> delayed opening a Second Front in France...
<DrB> in hopes that the Nazis and Soviets...
<DrB> would bash each other's heads in...
<DrB> so that the capitalists could then waltz into Europe...
<DrB> and pick up the pieces?
<Tanya> !
<DrB> Tan?
<Tanya> I can't say that it as correct, but if you put a theory such as that out there it sets people off in thinking that way.
<DrB> Can you elaborate, Tan?
<Tanya> People tend to listen to what a leader says...
<cecilia> ?
<Tanya> due to the fact that he is a representative of a certain group of people who...
<Tanya> tend to agree with what the leader would say...
<Tanya> therefore when you put a theory out such as that one...
<Tanya> people will legitimately think about it as being a potential...
<Tanya> action or result.
<DrB> Cecilia?
<cecilia> when you said :"so that the capitalists could then waltz into Europe", you actually meant the "communists"?
<DrB> No...Stalin believed that the Americans and British...
<DrB> were betraying him and the Russians...
<DrB> Allowing the Soviets to bear the brunt of the battle...
<DrB> against the Nazis and their allies...
<Bryan> !
<DrB> from 1941-44 ....
<DrB> in order to weaken both Russia and Germany...
<DrB> leaving them easy pickings for the Americans and English...
<DrB> Bry?
<cecilia> !
<Bryan> How could he? I mean we were working our buns off in a battle that wasn't even ours to begin with.
<DrB> Well...
<DrB> we weren't doing that much fighting...
<Bryan> ?
<DrB> prior to the invasion of Italy in 1943...
<DrB> Cecilia?
<cecilia> I was thinking about 1941, when Stalin made the pact with Hitler.
<DrB> Actually...
<DrB> the so-called "Pact of Steel" ....
<DrB> or Molotov-von Ribbentrop Agreement...
<DrB> was in 1939....
<DrB> Between 1939 and 1941 ...
<DrB> the Soviets sold to the Germans...
<DrB> the oil that the Nazis put in their tanks and planes...
<DrB> to invade France and bomb Britain....
<DrB> Bry?
<Bryan> When was Stalin's reign of terror?
<Bryan> his little mass murder thing?
<DrB> 1928-53.
<DrB> So, should the English and French...
<DrB> feel that the Russians sold THEM out in 1939 ....
<DrB> so that the West and the Nazis would bash THEIR heads in...
<DrB> and then the Russians could march in and pick up the pieces? ...
<DrB> I mean, ...
<DrB> who was betraying who?....
<Jim> !
<DrB> And did not Hitler just play both sides off against each other...
<DrB> in a brilliant diplomatic maneuver...
<DrB> to avoid fighting a two-front war? ....
<DrB> Jim?
<Jim> I don't think you could trust anyone during that period.
<DrB> Certainly no one could trust Hitler, ...
<DrB> that's for sure.
<Tanya> !
<DrB> Tan?
<Jim> I agree.
<Tanya> You can't say that Hitler didn't have a method to his madness...
<Tanya> too bad he used that method in such a manner as he did...he could've been brilliant.
<DrB> One difference ...
<DrB> between WWI and WWII...
<DrB> is that in WWI ...
<DrB> the allied powers never really got together...
<DrB> to agree on their war aims...
<DrB> until the war was over...
<DrB> At Versailles...
<DrB> they had to improvise...
<DrB> and the result was a pretty bad settlement....
<DrB> So, FDR and Churchill....
<DrB> decided to avoid that mistake...
<DrB> and have many wartime summits...
<DrB> to carefully plan out a post-war settlement...
<DrB> and leave nothing to chance, as had been done in 1919...
<DrB> The result was several "Big Three" summits...
<DrB> or, at least, major Allied conferences...
<DrB> including Casablanca ...
<DrB> Cairo....
<DrB> Tehran...
<DrB> and Yalta...
<DrB> At the Casablanca Conference in 1943 ...
<DrB> the Allies made perhaps the most fateful decision of them all...
<DrB> to demand the "unconditional surrender" of Japan and Germany...
<DrB> As noted in our discussion above...
<DrB> many thought that the big problem with Versailles...
<DrB> was the failure to get an unconditional surrender from Germany...
<DrB> So they wanted to avoid that mistake after WWII...
<DrB> Was unconditional surrender a good thing?
<Bryan> ?
<DrB> Bry?
<Bryan> First of all what exactly are the terms of Unconditional surrender?
<Dave_E> !
<DrB> The terms of unconditional surrender are...
<DrB> "No Terms" ....
<DrB> Just surrender...
<DrB> Dave?
<Dave_E> Yes, absolutely. When you're talking about Hitler...
<Dave_E> he's not going to surrender any other way...
<Tanya> !
<Bryan> ?
<Dave_E> he wasn't going to surrender...
<Dave_E> as it turned out he fought to his death.
<DrB> Tan?
<Tanya> But by not establishing terms you allow for the same mistakes to be repeated...
<Tanya> if you don't establish a base from which to start from...
<Tanya> how can you expect a change?
<DrB> Bry?
<Bryan> So technically they didn't surrender they just decided to back off and call it quits because they felt whipped? (in world war I that is)
<DrB> Not exactly...
<DrB> Remember how WWI ended...
<DrB> The Germans asked for an armistice...
<DrB> Pres. Wilson refused to discuss peace with the Kaiser...
<DrB> but he told the Germans that he might talk peace...
<DrB> with a democratic German government...
<DrB> So the Germans rioted in the streets...
<DrB> forced the Kaiser to flee...
<DrB> formed a republican government....
<DrB> got an armistice with the Allies...
<DrB> and then Wilson stabbed them in the back...
<DrB> with the Versailles treaty...
<DrB> After the betrayal of Versailles...
<DrB> would the Germans have even believed an American offer of conditional peace...
<DrB> in 1944-45?
<Tanya> !
<DrB> Tan?
<Tanya> You've got a strong point there - especially...
<Tanya> after Wilson draws up the settlement, and then doesn't even bother to back it up. Why should...
<Tanya> the Germans believe us again?
<DrB> If the Americans had offered the Germans...
<DrB> a conditional peace in 1943 or even 1944 ...
<DrB> before the Soviets marched into Germany...
<DrB> and had the German military believed the offer...
<DrB> maybe we could have had an end to the war before the USSR occupied all of central Europe...
<Tanya> ?
<Jim> ?
<DrB> and then the course of the Cold War would have been very different indeed...
<DrB> Tan?
<Tanya> How about this though...The Germans establish a democratic government...
<Tanya> and then end up voting the Nazi party into complete control...
<Tanya> only to be slapped in the face with their lunacy...
<Tanya> why should they then believe in a democratic government as being practical?
<DrB> Maybe...
<DrB> but if the German military believed...
<DrB> that they could get a deal from the Americans if they got rid of Hitler...
<DrB> maybe they would have done it...
<DrB> As it was...
<DrB> the German military believed that the Soviets would not stop...
<DrB> until they had raped every German woman...
<DrB> bayoneted every German child...
<DrB> and blew up the Brandenburg Gates...
<DrB> And as it turned out...
<DrB> that's almost precisely what the Soviets did!
<DrB> Jim?
<Jim> Didn't Wilson have a history of not following through with his plans, and wasn't he a laughing stock at Versailles, I mean it was the first time an American President traveled abroad, why would they believe him in the first place?
<DrB> Wilson had enormous public support in Europe...
<Tanya> !
<DrB> when he traveled to Paris in 1919...
<DrB> And it wasn't so much that Wilson didn't follow through...
<DrB> as much as the British, French, Italians, and Republican leadership in Congress...
<DrB> got in his way....
<DrB> Tan?
<Tanya> The Germans were afraid of the soviets because they had unsuccessfully tried to take their territory twice, and were defeated by the elements. the Germans were committing enough of their own atrocities to really fear the Russian genocide of their people.
<DrB> Don't misunderstand me...
<DrB> I'm not defending the Germans...
<DrB> The Germans had plenty of reason to fear the Russians...
<DrB> after what the Nazis had just done to the Russian people...
<DrB> The question is, "Did unconditional surrender serve the interests of the United States?" ....
<Tanya> ?
<DrB> Not whether unconditional or conditional surrender would have brought justice to Germany...
<DrB> Tan?
<Tanya> Where there economic advantages to this surrender apart from the relief of the war?
<DrB> Advantages to the United States or to Germany?
<Tanya> To America.
<DrB> Very few...
<Tanya> Then no.
<DrB> Unconditional surrender meant...
<DrB> that you had to go down into the bunker...
<DrB> and pull Hitler out of his hole...
<DrB> by the collar of his jacket...
<DrB> Which is what the Russians did....
<DrB> And the Russians got to Berlin first...
<DrB> and were reluctant to leave after the war was over...
<DrB> When the Americans and British arrived in Germany in 1945 ...
<DrB> they discovered to their sad amazement...
<DrB> that the Allied strategic bombing of Germany ...
<DrB> had been pretty ineffective...
<DrB> 85 percent of the German industrial plant...
<DrB> was intact and operational...
<DrB> In order to satisfy the French and Russians...
<DrB> that Germany not be allowed to ever wage war again on its neighbors...
<DrB> the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers began dynamiting German bridges and factories...
<DrB> dismantling some facilities and shipping them east, to the USSR ...
<DrB> We wanted to reduce the German living standard...
<DrB> to no higher than the overall European average...
<DrB> So, in 1947 ...
<DrB> when we realized that we needed a reindustrialized Germany ...
<DrB> to help us fight Communism...
<DrB> we had to pump billions of dollars back into Germany....
<DrB> to help it replace...
<DrB> the very bridges and factories...
<DrB> that we had destroyed after the war was already over! ....
<DrB> Is this a great country, or what?
<Tanya> !
<DrB> Tan?
<Tanya> Now who's stupid?
<DrB> Well, ....
<DrB> it gets worse...
<DrB> believe me.
<cecilia> !
<DrB> Cecilia?
<cecilia> AS a matter of fact, the...
<cecilia> Marshall plan was brilliant.
<DrB> The Marshall plan worked...
<DrB> But had the United States not dynamited German factories and bridges after the end of the war...
<DrB> there never would have been a need for the Marshall Plan.
<Jim> ?
<DrB> Jim?
<cecilia> !
<Jim> What would have France and Russia...
<Jim> done if we had refused to bomb the bridges and factories?
<Bryan> !
<DrB> Russia probably couldn't have stopped us...
<DrB> and the French could have been compensated in other ways...
<DrB> Cecilia?
<cecilia> If the US would have not done it, the Russians would have done it. It could have been worst.
<DrB> The Russians would have risked World War III if they invaded the Western sectors...
<DrB> and that's where all the German industry was...
<DrB> Bry?
<Bryan> I thinks it sucks that they started this war they were the ones being pests and of course we have to come in with all our resources to stop it and pay for it, it is a loose loose situation, we loose lots of money, Germany just didn't become ruler of the world
<Bryan> How unfair can it get?
<DrB> I suppose not much more unfair...
<DrB> Particularly if you were a Jew...
<DrB> The question I'm asking though...
<DrB> is, "Did unconditional surrender make things better or worse for the United States?" ....
<DrB> Could we have achieved a less costly peace...
<DrB> one that might have left us in a better position...
<DrB> to resist the communists after the war was over?
<Jim> ?
<DrB> Jim?
<Jim> But did we really know that we would have to resist the communist?
<DrB> No...maybe not...
<DrB> hindsight is 20-20...
<DrB> Okay...
<DrB> here's a tougher question...
<DrB> Should Harry Truman and the United States be condemned for dropping the Bomb on Japan?
<Bryan> !
<Jim> !
<DrB> Bry?
<Bryan> I think it was a learn from your mistakes type of situation. . .
<Bryan> and it was a quick way to end the war,,,
<Margo> !
<Bryan> without costing us hundreds of lives, and dollars etc.
<DrB> Jim?
<Jim> No.
<DrB> Care to explain why not, Jim?
<Tanya> !
<Jim> It was the only way to end the war....
<lauren> ?
<Jim> the Japanese were much more hardcore...
<Jim> than the Germans...
<Jim> the second bomb basically proves that.
<DrB> Margo?
<Margo> That's like the US to do something over the top like that. What a statement. It did end the war, but that could have ended like 3 wars, a bit excessive i think.
<Dave_E> !
<DrB> Tan?
<Alicn> !
<Tanya> I think the only reason why everyone is so bothered by the bomb was because of the brutality of it. However, it did set a precedent that no treaty or agreement could reach, and that was...
<Tanya> something like forced peace so as not to annihilate the entire world.
<DrB> Lauren?
<lauren> I was wonder if the Japanese were given any sort of warning about the bomb? Or was it just a huge horrible surprise?
<DrB> Not much of a warning...
<Margo> ?
<DrB> some pamphlets may have been dropped...
<Bria> ?
<DrB> but they would have been dismissed as propaganda...
<Jim> !
<DrB> The local authorities in Hiroshima sounded a air raid siren...
<DrB> but then they sounded the all-clear siren...
<DrB> and it was after the all-clear siren...
<DrB> that the Bomb hit...
<DrB> Dave?
<Dave_E> Keep in mind that Japan attacked us. (Big Mistake) I think dropping the bomb on them was justified.
<DrB> Can we equate Pearl Harbor...
<DrB> which was a military installation...
<DrB> with Hiroshima, which was not a military target?
<DrB> Alicn?
<Alicn> I agree with Bryan, at the time it seemed like the best way to end the war, but it was a huge deal and it would take a lot for the US to do something like that again. I would not condemn the US or Truman.
<DrB> Okay...
<DrB> Margo?
<Margo> Was this just a rumor, or did the bomb really leave shadows of people of the cement?
<DrB> Yep....
<DrB> Bria?
<Margo> ?
<DrB> Bria?
<Bria> didn't Truman warn the emp of Japan about the weapon?
<DrB> Not specifically, no...
<DrB> Jim?
<Jim> We didn't receive much warning at Pearl Harbor, it's always stuck with me that even though my grandmother marched for human rights, they were always Japs to her
<DrB> Well....
<DrB> the military commanders at Pearl...
<DrB> were given warning of an imminent Japanese attack...
<DrB> on Nov. 27....
<DrB> So they had some warning....
<DrB> Hiroshima also anticipated an attack....
<DrB> Almost every other city in Japan had been attacked ...
<DrB> with incendiary devices...
<Jim> ?
<DrB> And people in Hiroshima assumed...
<DrB> that they would be hit sooner or later....
<DrB> Margo?
<Margo> Yes it was a rumor or yes it left shadows?
<DrB> Yes, it left shadows (sorry for the confusion!) ...
<Tanya> ?
<DrB> I highly recommend the book, "Hiroshima" by John Hersey to all of you...
<lauren> ?
<DrB> Jim?
<Jim> Why then didn't they call back the fleet? They would have had plenty of time to return.
<DrB> Why didn't Japan pull back their fleet in December 1941?
<DrB> The Americans were convinced...
<DrB> that Japan would attack in late November or early December, at the latest...
<DrB> On Saturday, Dec. 6...
<DrB> FDR stated that he believed Japan would attack the next day, Sunday, Dec. 7...
<DrB> The Americans just didn't know precisely WHERE Japan would strike...
<DrB> Most people thought that Manila would be the first target...
<DrB> But every commander in the Pacific theater received a warning of imminent attack...
<cecilia> !
<DrB> including the commanders at Pearl..
<DrB> Tan?
<Tanya> What was the death toll from the bomb in Hiroshima? What was the death toll from the Holocaust? I think the bigger question here is was dropping the bomb an act of terrorism, or a sensational act for peace?
<DrB> I'm not sure the dropping was either...
<DrB> I'm convinced that it was little more...
<DrB> than a weapons test against a live target...
<DrB> Lauren?
<lauren> Was there any particular reason they chose to bomb Hiroshima with the atomic bomb, or was it attacked only because it hadn't been attacked yet?
<DrB> Hiroshima was bombed...
<DrB> because it wasn't a priority military target...
<DrB> as a result...
<DrB> the city remained in pristine condition...
<DrB> which gave the Air Force...
<DrB> good "Before" and "After" pictures...
<DrB> Cecilia?
<DrB> Yikes! ....
<DrB> just when I called on her! ....
<Tanya> !
<cecilia1> sorry about my connection...
<DrB> Cecilia....did you have a comment or question?
<cecilia1> Many historians believe...
<cecilia1> believed that FDR...
<cecilia1> knew about the attack, because...
<cecilia1> the MAGIC system could decodefy...
<cecilia1> the Japanese telegraphs....
<cecilia1> and he didn't want to ask the Congress....
<cecilia1> the go to war, and he wanted the public to be outrage and to get involved in the war.
<DrB> FDR knew that an attack was imminent and he was counting on an attack to occur....
<DrB> He didn't know precisely when and where the attack would come....
<DrB> although, as I mentioned above,...
<DrB> on Dec. 6 he stated before witnesses that he expected the attack the next day, on Dec. 7 ....
<DrB> The president wanted a war against Japan and hoped Japan would give us the excuse we needed...
<DrB> to fight...
<DrB> And, to be fair...
<DrB> a war against Japan was probably warranted, given their actions in China...
<DrB> and their threat to American military and economic interests in the Far East....
<DrB> Tan?
<Tanya> Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that I think what happened was right,I'm just trying to get a better clarification behind the massive atrocities committed during WWII.
<DrB> Gotcha....
<DrB> There are no excuses for the Nazi terror...
<DrB> or the Japanese terror...
<DrB> or the Russian terror, which probably was greater than the Nazi and Japanese terror combined...
<DrB> The Americans also committed atrocities in WWII....
<DrB> like an illegal food embargo against occupied Europe...
<DrB> the mistreatment of German POWs after the war...
<Jim> !
<Jim> !
<DrB> the imposed hunger and malnutrition in Germany after the war...
<DrB> the fact that American atrocities pale in comparison to the Nazi-Japanese-Soviet atrocities...
<DrB> shouldn't absolve us of responsibility for our own actions...
<DrB> Jim?
<Jim> Believe me, it's real hard not to commit atrocities where atrocities are being committed....
<Jim> they become very easy and matter of fact...
<Jim> we may not want to admit it...
<Jim> but that is human nature.
<DrB> You're 100 percent correct, Jim...
<DrB> And no one who has not actually experienced war...
<DrB> can ever fully understand it...
<DrB> And as many veterans point out...
<DrB> the rest of us sleep soundly in our beds at night...
<DrB> because others are out there on the front, ...
<DrB> committing all sorts of acts...
<DrB> on our behalf...
<DrB> so that we can sleep soundly.
<Tanya> ?
<Jim> Semper Fi
<DrB> Tan?
<Tanya> DrB are you a vet?
<DrB> Nope.
<DrB> Okay...
<DrB> I don't know about you guys...
<DrB> but I'm worn out by this discussion! ....
<Tanya> !
<DrB> Let's call it a night.
<DrB> Tan?
<Tanya> I heard that, but it was a good one!
<DrB> See ya!
<cecilia1> good night DrB
<Tanya> Thanks!!
<Alicn> bye guys

DrB